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Offline Curtis Cozier  
#1 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 9:16:45 AM(UTC)
Curtis Cozier

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Congrats on the recent election. Let's hope IMAC can move forward..
To that end I have a question for the Board.

What specifically does the board plan to do to address International membership?
I see posts about international events, but then look at the actually membership and very few are members of IMAC.
Is this being addressed and if so, how.
Thanks

To that end, I do think it is fantastic.
But lets look at the upcoming Italian cup

Country..............Competing Pilots..................IMAC Members in that country
Argentina...................1..............................................2
Austria....................... 9 ............................................... 1
Belgium.....................1................................................... 0
Czech Rep.............18...................................................... 2
Denmark ..................1 .................................................... 2
France.................. 3 ........................................................ 2
Germany...............10......................................................2
India....................... 1...........................................................1
Italy ...........................35 .................................................... 8
Kuwait ..................... 1 ........................................................ 0
Netherlands ................1...................................................... 1
Poland........................ 2 .....................................................0
Slovakia ................... 2...................................................... 0
Spain ...................... 1 ................................................. 2
Switzerland.................4 .................................................. 2
Turkey...........................3 ............................................. 0
Uruguay.....................1................................................ 2

Totals............................94 ................................... 26

So...it appears there is fantastic interest in Europe. 94 pilots is a great thing to see.....Truly wonderful
But for a National/International IMAC event.. less than 1/3 are actual members..

So again, What specifically is the board planning regarding international memberships?
And I'll add, how specifically are the unknowns handled for international requests in general.
......
Offline Brad  
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:00:47 AM(UTC)
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Membership, both International and Domestic, is a big concern to the Board, and we've got a number of ideas that are being considered. The question is complex, with many facets. Since you asked the question to the Board, rather than providing individual responses, give us a chance to give you a comprehensive response from the collective Board. It probably won't happen quickly, and with a new Board starting in January (yes, I know there are several returning Board members), that Board needs a chance to weigh in as well.

BTW, I am speaking for myself, and not the Board.

Brad
Offline Adi Kochav  
#3 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 10:14:48 AM(UTC)
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Hi Curtis

From the strat of 2019 season every pilot that will fly IMAC in any regional competition will be signed as IMAC member.
So basically, I love the numbers you wrote with all the dots and sums but I guess they are about to change for the positive.
FYI, some of the Countries joined IMAC only for the past few months and weeks and we still work to make IMAC the dominant Scale Aerobatics practice in Europe and the world.
Like you’ve wrote, to have so many IMAC pilots gathered in one big contest is something we do not take in granted so one piece at the time, I as a regional director do not take the membership as mandatory right now I’ve looked 2-4 years to the future since I’ve got to the office.
So having about 100 members right now in the 3rd biggest region in IMAC is something not odious
We’re planing to make the region grow in 100% until the end of this year and 50% more at the end of 2020. .

As for the unknowns, we have established a method where at list the CD and one of the pilots competing in a contest needs to be an IMAC member.
Some countries has more members some have less, because in some countries statistically has less pilots, thus the number of members are sometimes 20% of the pilots and in some 80-100%.

Cheers
Adi
Offline Steve Stanton  
#4 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 1:52:58 PM(UTC)
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I think Curtis raises a very good question. I have wondered about this myself as I read about the great turnouts
we're getting in the European area yet the corresponding membership numbers are so low.
When we (IMAC) decided to raise the dues, there were a lot opinions on the subject with some fearing that this would cause members to drop out or not renew.
I don't remember how much the dues were before we raised them but I recall it was a poultry sum and even the new cost of membership was really not in line with the cost of participating in the hobby.
Honestly, I don't get it. When you consider what you are getting as a competitor in even one event, it's just crazy to
think that we don't require a competitor to pay for their membership.
There are ways you can be a part of IMAC on a budget but even then, paying $50 for a yearly membership is in no
way out of line.
I can see that a first time competitor in the Basic Class should be exempt from joining but beyond that, the cost of
what you are receiving as a member, far exceeds what your paying for to be a part of this organization.
This question also plays into a number of other considerations when you think about it. It speaks to the idea we
hear from time to time about limiting the size of airplanes and other things that are related to cost.
I think we're way to sensitive to the question of cost Vs Membership.
Just my 2 cents
Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#5 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 5:22:37 PM(UTC)
Manrico Mincuzzi

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It is interesting.
This issue of International membership comes up every now and then, mostly from the same subjects, and always with the purpose to criticize the behavior of the BOD.
There is no question that, from a theoretical point of view, this argument is built on solid ground: any pilot in the world, flying IMAC, is benefitting in various ways from the existence of IMAC and therefore he should pay some sort of registration fee to IMAC. Who will ever be able to contradict this perfect argument?
However, in practice, the real world seems to work in a quite different way.
For example, if you take the European case, that I know very well, you cannot avoid noticing that in 2014, when we started the IMAC revamping process in the Region, very few pilots were really flying IMAC or had an interest into it. Except in a few spots, like the UK or Norway. In general, Europe has been a possession of FAI since WW2. The vast majority of semi-scale pilots, since the inception of this practice in Europe, have been flying F3M, F3X or EAC. When in 2014 we started to make the point that all these local categories were, pretty much, just a bad copy of IMAC, most of the pilots and organizers did not take us seriously.
In 2015, when we launched the first IMAC ITALIA Open International event, that collected 32 participants from 7 Countries who, in many cases, really had to be invited with all sort of prayers and incentives, the greatest part of the air modeling society in Europe thought that we were fighting against windmills.
The growth path we went through during the last four years proved that we had the right vision while they were living in the past.
Now we have 20 Countries participating in the European Region. Each one of them has a Country representative. In some of them, like Spain, France, Austria, and the Czech Rep. an IMAC Open International event is in the process to be organized. We launched the 2020 Europeans as a Regional Championship and we qualified to host the Worlds in 2022.
These achievements are the result of work done locally with the support of the BOD, that never stopped to provide advice and enthusiasm. In addition, we had the work of Adi, who has been extremely effective at coordinating the efforts among Regions (quite a delicate, cross-cultural, very important role). By the way, it apparently needs to be reminded that this critical support has been provided by, pretty much, the same BOD that has been recently re-elected.
However, thanks to these achievements, the times are now mature to ask participating pilots for a contribution to the IMAC central budget. Please consider and do not forget, that the local pilots already support the development of IMAC in their countries by paying their contest participation fees. With this money the local IMAC organizers have organized the competitions, trained a pretty vast cadre of judges, have sustained the local IMAC marketing communication, and, in some cases, have also introduced pretty advanced technological innovations to automatize the management of the contests.
Nonetheless, on top of these locally generated values, the central value of the IMAC Brand, incorporated in the rules, and the support provided to each region making available the known and unknown sequences, has to be properly rewarded. There is no question about this and we are now in the position of making it happen, since we now operate on a pilot's population who has learned to recognize and respect the existence of IMAC. Some year ago this was just not the case, therefore, the theoretically correct ambition to have pilots pay a fee to Central IMAC whenever participating in an IMAC event, would have poorly failed. If this obligation would have been pushed to early, the whole development of IMAC in Europe would have probably failed.
In Italy next year I will run the experiment of incorporating the payment of the IMAC membership fee into the overall year budget of the Country. In other words, when a pilot will register into any competition (they all cost 4o euro), he will immediately get also the IMAC year membership registration as a benefit.
By introducing this policy, next year, all the Italian pilots will automatically become IMAC members.
I am also in the process of suggesting to all the other Country Representatives to experiment with the introduction of the same policy. I believe it will take a couple of years to make it happen everywhere. At the end of the process, about 300 new members will be created in Europe, if not more. Their fees will be collected at Country level and sent to the US in bulk. The implementation of the more traditional marketing activity, trying to collect individual spontaneous registrations, would not produce the same result. We will achieve this goal by implementing a policy, that is similar to the introduction of a tax. Everybody is willing to pay a tax if the existence of the government is recognized. The existence of IMAC is now definitely recognized in key Countries.
After the implementation of this policy, different and hopefully new arguments will have to be envisioned in order to criticize the behavior of the BOD and we are already eager to be surprised by their innovative articulation.
Personally, I believe that, especially after new elections, a new BOD should be strongly supported and not criticized, as the beginning of a new mandate should always start in great harmony and enthusiasm.
I would like to wish to each of the new BOD members a great new term. Love

thanks 7 users thanked Manrico Mincuzzi for this useful post.
Earle Andrews on 11/3/2018(UTC), Charles Lewis on 11/3/2018(UTC), Toby W. Silhavy on 11/3/2018(UTC), Randy Brunette on 11/4/2018(UTC), Adi Kochav on 11/5/2018(UTC), Kevin Wilson on 11/6/2018(UTC), Peter on 4/2/2019(UTC)
Offline Toby W. Silhavy  
#6 Posted : Saturday, November 3, 2018 11:04:12 PM(UTC)
Toby W. Silhavy

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Very well put Manrico!
Toby Silhavy
“Chase the dream, not the competition “
2018 IMAC WORLD TEAM USA MEMBER
USA USA USA USA 🇺🇸
Offline Kevin Garland  
#7 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2018 1:16:20 AM(UTC)
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What about ASAA? Any plans on working with ASAA and work together?
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Offline Adi Kochav  
#8 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2018 4:09:04 AM(UTC)
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Hi Kevin

ASAA is already part of IMAC.
Being an organization of their own we work very tight, thus, they register each contest they have on mini iac.org, about 20 annually, and therefore get the unknowns from our sequence committee and is part of the International point system as well.
Australia is a class of her own because the structure and similarities to the US makes them almost have a region of their own.

We have almost weekly talks about how we can make the best to work with Australia so one of the first things we did is to have an Asia/Pacific Aeria, in the future they will be a full region of their own.

Like I’ve wrote on previous thread, in each Aeria we have a dominant country to communicate with other close by countries because as we see it, they have common language and a lot of corporations.
So Australia is a key stone in the future Asia /Pacific Region.

Cheers
Adi

Edited by user Monday, November 5, 2018 4:31:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Steve Stanton  
#9 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2018 9:53:11 AM(UTC)
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Hi Manrico, you have done a great job over the years of developing the European IMAC interest and participation.
I'm not sure how you came to the idea that anyone was criticizing the BOD but I can assure you that was at least not my intention. I have nothing but praise for the job they are doing and I support them 100%.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't express our opinions about any issue to which we feel should be explored.
My thoughts on the membership issue and how it relates to the problem, applies to any area that IMAC is evolved
in, not just the European area.
Your plan to have Euro-IMAC contribute financially to the organization sounds great and I applaud you for it.
Steve
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Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#10 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2018 6:42:23 PM(UTC)
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I would like to dive into the issue of collecting Membership fees and, therefore, creating new members.

My intention is to provide another view to the problem, that each of you may like or not.

The concept I would like to propose articulates in the following way:

Assumptions:
1. The idea that each Pilot should consider becoming an IMAC member as a personal decision is very democratic, but it creates a very difficult marketing problem that experience proved we are not very good at dominating;
2. However, the idea that each Pilot participating in any IMAC competition should be a member is correct, because he is benefitting from a whole history of work that has enabled him to be there enjoying his competition;
3. The idea that each Pilot participating in an IMAC competition should receive the yearly IMAC membership as a benefit would be, in my view, our best marketing.
Proposed solution:
1. Stop considering Membership as a stand-alone relationship between IMAC and each member, actual or potential;
2. Start considering Membership as an automatic consequence of having decided to participate to at least one IMAC competition in one certain year;
3. View Membership as a relationship between IMAC and the group of pilots operating in a large enough territory. This territory should be in the position of managing a large enough IMAC budget. It could be a Region or a Country or whatever, the important criteria is that a large enough IMAC budget has to be under control of that territory;
4. Let's assume that the revenues of that budget are largely correlated to the sum of all the fees requested to participate in each competition. Let's forget potential sponsorship for the moment;
5. Let's assume that, in that territory, over a year, operates a certain amount of active IMAC Pilots. Each one participating in a different number of competitions. After a few years of operation of that territory, you will be able to discern a certain amount of recurring Pilots and a smaller amount of new Pilots every year;
6. I would guess that the budget of this territory will normally be built on the expectation of the revenue coming from the recurring pilots plus a forecast of the expected new pilots. This budget should have a certain room for investment or additional costs allocation, as it usually happens with any budget;
7. In my view, a part of this room for cost allocation has to be made large enough so that, every year, that territory should be able to pay to IMAC a certain amount equal to the following formula: yearly Registration Fee - times - the total number of Pilots flying in the territory in that year.
8. It is clear that the size of this "room for additional cost" is correlated to the contest participation fee level. However, it is interesting to observe that, in a large enough territory, the marginal increase of the contest participation fee, let's say 5$, would probably go quite unnoticed. This way of marginally maneuvering contest participation fees could create an interesting "room for investment" that could resolve the issue of Membership. This algebra works if, in the territory, a large enough number of contests is normally managed.
9. As a consequence of the implementation of this policy, the recurring Pilots who participate in several competitions a year will consider natural that the amount paid to participate in all those competitions included the yearly Membership to IMAC;
10. At the same time, the new Pilots who participated only into one competition that year, maybe just to try, will be happy to see that, as a side consequence, they all received the yearly Membership. This will be perceived as a benefit and incentive to participate in more.

The implementation of this possible solution would ensure the fact that all Pilots participating in any IMAC competition in any such territory will become IMAC members that year. By implementing this policy all over the world, I believe the number of members will grow dramatically, simply because all flying pilots will become members automatically. This condition may take us to the point that the cost of the annual registration fee might be reduced while preserving a large enough central budget.

In addition to the flying members, we should, of course, continue to have supporting members that would like to play that role without flying. A special membership offer should be proposed to them.


This is the way I see it, but I might be very wrong ...
thanks 4 users thanked Manrico Mincuzzi for this useful post.
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Offline Curtis Cozier  
#11 Posted : Friday, November 16, 2018 10:29:28 AM(UTC)
Curtis Cozier

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Originally Posted by: Brad Go to Quoted Post
Membership, both International and Domestic, is a big concern to the Board, and we've got a number of ideas that are being considered. The question is complex, with many facets. Since you asked the question to the Board, rather than providing individual responses, give us a chance to give you a comprehensive response from the collective Board. It probably won't happen quickly, and with a new Board starting in January (yes, I know there are several returning Board members), that Board needs a chance to weigh in as well.

BTW, I am speaking for myself, and not the Board.

Brad



Thank you very, very much to Adi and Manrico for your dedication and drive to push IMAC on an International front.. it appears that you have a plan and are pushing it forward....

Thank you Brad for taking time to answer; however, I am saddened, but not surprised to find that after several years, the current BOD still does not have any plan of action in place to push IMAC forward on the International stage and is still simply considering multiple ideas......
......
Offline Peter  
#12 Posted : Sunday, May 12, 2019 2:54:16 AM(UTC)
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I think you will find that ASAA members will vote against ALSO becoming IMAC(US) members. The cost is going to double current membership fees for ASAA membership. Since we have a country representative organisation and an operational website for registering and posting results membership value is not increased by much with mandating IMAC membership - just duplication. There is divide here. Regardless of the name- IMAC(US) represents US members. ASAA represents Australian IMAC pilots.
It's not just numbers and tiles, but having a cohesive group. 95% of pilots will never fly outside of their country, Just imagine the travel expenses when the Worlds are held in Australia. BTW, I've been an IMAC Member for many years. And I enjoyed the 2018 Worlds.
Offline Adi Kochav  
#13 Posted : Sunday, May 12, 2019 5:36:54 AM(UTC)
Adi Kochav

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Originally Posted by: Peter Go to Quoted Post
I think you will find that ASAA members will vote against ALSO becoming IMAC(US) members. The cost is going to double current membership fees for ASAA membership. Since we have a country representative organisation and an operational website for registering and posting results membership value is not increased by much with mandating IMAC membership - just duplication. There is divide here. Regardless of the name- IMAC(US) represents US members. ASAA represents Australian IMAC pilots.
It's not just numbers and tiles, but having a cohesive group. 95% of pilots will never fly outside of their country, Just imagine the travel expenses when the Worlds are held in Australia. BTW, I've been an IMAC Member for many years. And I enjoyed the 2018 Worlds.


Hi Peter

That’s something the current BoD and I are trying to explain so many times but it seems that it’s not being fully understood.

Since the first Worlds in 2014, IMAC went full steam ahead in making IMAC an international club, not just for the US pilots but for the entire world that fly scale Aerobatic.
We’ve created a new International Region just for that and because we think that we need to give more exposure to all of the countries we are going to split this International Region into 3 regions so basically we will have 3 International regions in each we will have a regional director that will be represented in the BoD.
So the BoD will have now 6 US and Canada (almost a full continent) regions and 3 international regions.

It’s needless to say that US and Canada are the biggest regions now because of pilots and area.
There is no reason why International won’t be the same.

The 3 new regions will cover the Latin America, Europe and Asia/Pacific.
Currently, Asia Pacific is having 2 countries right now, Australia and India.
Australia being one of the biggest countries flying IMAC is actually the Asia Pacific Region so having a repressive in the IMAC BoD as a regional director is something that will sure serve both interest in making IMAC grow more globally and between us, will set once and for all the cliché, of IMAC being a US Club entity.

Yes it was created in the US, yes it’s bank account is in NC USA yes it is an Incorporated club but it has representatives from 28 countries.
With all that being said, if we want to influence and create a global world class club now is the time.
IMAC will never interfere with domestic issues or club issues and you know that already, our loyalty is with the ASAA, always was and always will be.

As for Website, scores and publicity, IMAC website is not trying to take all your hard work on your already developed website, it’s trting to sum and provide accessibility to all other pilots that are not from Australia, as written before, 28 countries, this will serve all pilots and give all other countries big and small the right and obvious exposure needed to develop their country and region, it will also work as an informative website for pilots that do want to go to Australia or any other country and compete.

As for IMAC Worlds in Australia some day, well the obvious is that this contests should be traveling throughout the different regions so if it was in the US twice, in 2020 in Europe why not in 2024 in Australia...who dares wins my friend, the last you need to think of is the lack of International pilots.

So, are you with us seeing history as it’s made ?

Cheers
Adi
Offline Doug Pilcher  
#14 Posted : Sunday, May 12, 2019 6:52:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Peter Go to Quoted Post
I think you will find that ASAA members will vote against ALSO becoming IMAC(US) members. The cost is going to double current membership fees for ASAA membership. Since we have a country representative organisation and an operational website for registering and posting results membership value is not increased by much with mandating IMAC membership - just duplication. There is divide here. Regardless of the name- IMAC(US) represents US members. ASAA represents Australian IMAC pilots.
It's not just numbers and tiles, but having a cohesive group. 95% of pilots will never fly outside of their country, Just imagine the travel expenses when the Worlds are held in Australia. BTW, I've been an IMAC Member for many years. And I enjoyed the 2018 Worlds.


Peter, I understand the points you have made here. I really do. You do and can host your own website for contest schedules and results. BUT, Australia does use the resources provided by IMAC do they not? Specifically, Knowns each year as they are created by IMAC and the Sequence Committee? Unknowns each contest as they are created by IMAC and the Sequence Committee? And the Rules as the are released each 2 year Rules Cycle changes as they are created by the IMAC Rules Committee? This is all items provided to IMAC internationally. US Canada and the rest of the IMAC community Internationally are they not? These are created by a host of individuals with no compensation as to their work. These are people and committees created by IMAC for IMAC Worldwide. Why then if this is created and provided Internationally, does IMAC (US) as you phrase it, just represent IMAC US? That is not a true statement. It is resources provided to all the club and it's members worldwide. Why should Australia use these resources, yet not be part of IMAC as members? We are a club and providing these resources is only a small part of what the "Club" provides it's members.

As Brad stated, the BOD is working on things to include International IMAC as a whole. Also as the NEW BOD is in place and now just these topics have had a chance to move to a front burner. It still will take time to plan an approach to these things to benefit IMAC globally.

And I also speak for myself here, and NOT the BOD as a whole. But I do know the BOD as a whole sees this as a mandatory item moving forward.
Doug Pilcher
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Offline Toby W. Silhavy  
#15 Posted : Sunday, May 12, 2019 8:28:45 AM(UTC)
Toby W. Silhavy

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I would personally love to see the worlds in Australia someday!!!! I think having the international region having seats on the BOD is a great idea as well. IMAC is and should always be International!
Toby Silhavy
“Chase the dream, not the competition “
2018 IMAC WORLD TEAM USA MEMBER
USA USA USA USA 🇺🇸
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