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Offline rclad  
#16 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 5:09:45 PM(UTC)
rclad

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Originally Posted by: Steve Stanton Go to Quoted Post
Not to confuse the issue but in almost every event I have attended, you will cross the "Dead Line" at the end of
the round in order to land. So the rule referring to repeated crossing of the dead line would apply while your flying
the sequences.
It is and has been my opinion that the 90 degree rolling turn as shown in the Intermediate sequence is an extremely
dangerous maneuver. Not only with respect to the distinct possibility of losing your plane but also to the possibility
of doing serious damage to people or property surrounding the field.
It is actually more dangerous that the "Roller" since it can easily result in your flying out further than you would in a Roller.
In addition, (in my opinion) it is given a totally unrealistic K factor. It provides the same factor as a Half Cubin with
a half roll on the 45 line. These two maneuvers aren't even in the same world with regard to difficulty, yet they have the same K Factor.
The rational for including the Rolling Turn in the Intermediate sequence bears examination. It's suppose to provide you with a means of introduction to the Roller. If fact (again my opinion) you would be safer and far better off practicing the Roller.


The K factor for the 90 degree roller was puzzling to me, too, but it was just pointed out to me yesterday, that the reason probably has to do with the fact that it's easier for the full scale planes to fly that maneuver than it is for us, just as, conversely, the hammerhead is easier for us than the full scale planes, yet given a high K factor.

We may not be motivated by a good score to learn how to do a good 90 degree roller, but by a desire to save our planes (and not hurt anyone)! If you can master the slow roll, the roller is not that much harder (IMO).

There is danger in any aerobatic maneuver, not just the roller. Pushing to inverted is still a challenge for me. The other day I got behind a Humpty Bump with a full roll up and full roll down. I was late in pushing to exit inverted, started with a radius that was too big for the altitude remaining, and ended up doing a panic push with an exit angled toward the pits. A couple fellow club members were watching and could see I was in trouble. it wouldn't be fun, nor would we learn much, if it wasn't challenging!

Greg Hladky
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and physics, power, practice, preparation, plans...
and pioneers who pushed the envelope!
Offline Doug Pilcher  
#17 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 5:18:32 PM(UTC)
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I am not following your logic for an instance where crossing the deadline coming into or out of a sequence is a necessity? Beyond a holding pattern scenario with Line Boss's and a CD knowing what is happening and why and within a flying area that allows for this, such as Muncie with the room, there should be no instance of crossing the deadline for any other reason with complete control of the aircraft in your direct control.

Zero or No Zero. The deadline is an AMA requirement. And a CD's requirement to enforce with a warning and with multiple infractions grounding of a pilot. When I read your posts Greg, it sounds like you are trying to find a way to do it for your comfort of the 90 degree roller coming in instead of out without penalty of any nature for the crossing of the deadline and I do not see how this would be OK.

What am I missing here?

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Offline rclad  
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:16:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Doug Pilcher Go to Quoted Post
I am not following your logic for an instance where crossing the deadline coming into or out of a sequence is a necessity? Beyond a holding pattern scenario with Line Boss's and a CD knowing what is happening and why and within a flying area that allows for this, such as Muncie with the room, there should be no instance of crossing the deadline for any other reason with complete control of the aircraft in your direct control.


Landing is a necessity, so we do have to cross the deadline for that, which is basically what Brad pointed out is all that is happening here at the end of the Intermediate sequence, if the roller is flown inbound.

Originally Posted by: Doug Pilcher Go to Quoted Post
When I read your posts Greg, it sounds like you are trying to find a way to do it for your comfort of the 90 degree roller coming in instead of out without penalty of any nature for the crossing of the deadline and I do not see how this would be OK.

What am I missing here?


Not for my comfort, but for safety and for optimal judging. A slow rolling, smooth roller eats up a lot of airspace, about 400-500', maybe more, the way I've been doing it. I can probably tighten that up with practice. If I have to start 300-400' out in a contest with dual flight lines, I will end up flying so far out that the judges will have a hard time seeing it, and more importantly, I will have a hard time controlling the airplane. The only other option is to fly inbound and exit close to the deadline. Since the sequence is over, what really is the issue, if I'm crossing the deadline where I would normally do so anyway to start an approach?

Edited by user Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:27:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Greg Hladky
Flying on a wing and a purpose...
and physics, power, practice, preparation, plans...
and pioneers who pushed the envelope!
Offline Brad  
#19 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:19:25 PM(UTC)
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Personally I think pilots spend too much time worrying about the roller and not enough time practicing them. I decided to move up to advanced this year and was worried about the 270 three roll roller ending coming in. So starting in October I went out and flew entire practice flights of just rollers. Started out really nervous and really ugly, aborted most of them. But within a month, it got easier as the muscle memory kicked in.

And for Intermediate, I’ve never seen an Intermediate pilot that WANTED to fly it in.

Finally, the Intermediate roller presents much better if its flown at the center. Its easier to see to fly it as well.

Brad
Offline rclad  
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:52:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Brad Go to Quoted Post
Personally I think pilots spend too much time worrying about the roller and not enough time practicing them.


I would definitely worry, if I worried more than I practiced! I started practicing the roller as soon as the sequence was out in the fall. I'm just trying to anticipate possible scenarios that may come up in a contest that don't usually - if ever - happen in practice.

Originally Posted by: Brad Go to Quoted Post
And for Intermediate, I’ve never seen an Intermediate pilot that WANTED to fly it in.


We can't always choose the ideal conditions in a contest and may end up with a strong 90 degree blow out wind (happened last year at the Nats) while also flying the second line out.

Originally Posted by: Brad Go to Quoted Post
Finally, the Intermediate roller presents much better if its flown at the center. Its easier to see to fly it as well.


Great tip! I will have to try that.

Greg Hladky
Flying on a wing and a purpose...
and physics, power, practice, preparation, plans...
and pioneers who pushed the envelope!
Offline Mike Karnes  
#21 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 7:25:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Doug Pilcher Go to Quoted Post
I am not following your logic for an instance where crossing the deadline coming into or out of a sequence is a necessity? Beyond a holding pattern scenario with Line Boss's and a CD knowing what is happening and why and within a flying area that allows for this, such as Muncie with the room, there should be no instance of crossing the deadline for any other reason with complete control of the aircraft in your direct control.

Zero or No Zero. The deadline is an AMA requirement. And a CD's requirement to enforce with a warning and with multiple infractions grounding of a pilot. When I read your posts Greg, it sounds like you are trying to find a way to do it for your comfort of the 90 degree roller coming in instead of out without penalty of any nature for the crossing of the deadline and I do not see how this would be OK.

What am I missing here?


Greg can only do a roller to the right
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Offline rclad  
#22 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 7:45:23 PM(UTC)
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LOL

Let's have Rob Willis demonstrate a left roller at Judging school next week! (Schedule C!)
Greg Hladky
Flying on a wing and a purpose...
and physics, power, practice, preparation, plans...
and pioneers who pushed the envelope!
Offline Rob Willis  
#23 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 8:27:08 PM(UTC)
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Look out Greg! I have a secrets weapon this year... schedule “D”. !
Offline Rob Willis  
#24 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 8:28:25 PM(UTC)
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Look out Greg! I have a secret weapon this year... schedule “D”. !
Offline rclad  
#25 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:06:13 PM(UTC)
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It's a good thing you won't be judging any of my flights! I have no idea what a Schedule D looks like. Is that when the wind is coming from... well, best not to go there!
Greg Hladky
Flying on a wing and a purpose...
and physics, power, practice, preparation, plans...
and pioneers who pushed the envelope!
Offline Bill Teeter  
#26 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:12:17 PM(UTC)
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Geez - tough crowd here. Mind you I have flown a few rollers that made Mr. Willis duck ......LOL (Rob will remember)

Going back and looking at the sequence I really wonder why you would ever need to fly the 90 degree roller inbound. It seems to be more of a hypothetical discussion to me. Looking at the Intermediate sequence #8 is a Half Cuban, #9 is a Hammer and coming out of the Hammer you then fly the 90 degree roller. You would not want the Hammer to be that far out and really for presentation purposes I think you should be able to hold your lines in the wind well enough to not be getting blown too far out by the time you are flying Intermediate. All that to say that I would rarely see a case to fly a 90 degree roller inbound. If you are getting blown out to that point maybe you should not be moving up that fast.

I have flown Intermediate Unknowns where there was a cross box exit from a humpty coming inbound and then had to fly a 90 degree roller to exit left or right on the X axis. Remember having to do that in the World's 2014. But it did not come close to a deadline issue if you managed your lines and speed.

I also remember one time in the last 10 years where I saw an Advanced pilot fly a roller inbound when everyone else was flying outbound. It kind of froze my brain for a few seconds because it looked pretty funky coming towards the judges instead of away from us. But that pilot had tremendous skills and I know he had practiced rollers by the hour both outbound and inbound and could make the adjustment in a split second.

Having said that I would still fly the roller outbound and do not ever flirt with the deadline ...... especially when Mike is in the chair.
Offline Chuck Edwards  
#27 Posted : Friday, April 19, 2019 9:13:31 PM(UTC)
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Greg,

Don’t overthink it buddy! Practice on the sim if you have one as much as you can. In order to progress through the classes, these types of maneuvers need to be introduced at some point. If not in intermediate we would be shating in our pants doing the 3 roll 270 in advanced! As far as zeros go, we need to stick to the rules and judge accordingly!
Charles Edwards
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Offline Chuck Edwards  
#28 Posted : Friday, April 19, 2019 10:12:17 PM(UTC)
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I am confused as to why you cross the deadline to land?
Charles Edwards
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Offline Chuck Edwards  
#29 Posted : Friday, April 19, 2019 10:13:30 PM(UTC)
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You going to do it on the z axis? Lol
Charles Edwards
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Offline A.J. Jaffe  
#30 Posted : Saturday, April 20, 2019 1:59:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Chuck Edwards Go to Quoted Post
I am confused as to why you cross the deadline to land?


The deadline is usually the far side of the runway. Call me crazy but I usually make a point to land on the runway.

A.J.
thanks 2 users thanked A.J. Jaffe for this useful post.
rclad on 4/20/2019(UTC), Joe Layne on 4/22/2019(UTC)
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