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Offline Peter  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, May 15, 2019 5:52:11 AM(UTC)
Peter

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Australia

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I know IMAC stands for International Miniature Aerobatic Club to parallel the fullsize IAC. As such the previous IMAC represented the US, but has recently "internationalised" itself by establishing regions and having IMAC as the "peak" Scale aerobatics organization worldwide.
Australia is served by the Australian Scale Aerobatic Association (Inc) that promotes Scale Aerobatics to Australians, and encourages aeromodelers to better their flying of aerobatics etc.etc. Similar objectives to IMAC. It is affiliated to the Australian aeromodelers peak association the MAAA. A "Sister" organisation to the AMA. The President of AMA visited the MAAA Nationals in 2018 as a guest of the MAAA President and he even awarded the Scale Aerobatics awards at that Competition. If there is country-to-country sister organizations, why can there not be "special interest group" to "special interest group" parallel organizations?
How many countries world-wide have legally constituted organizations dedicated to promoting scale aerobatics? If so please let me know on this discussion list to see how each of these local organisations are dealing with the process of internationalisation of IMAC along with discussion about fees and unknown preparation. Secondly which countries have an equivalent of the AMA or MAAA? Most would have an equivalent of the FAA, or CASA.

Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, May 15, 2019 1:30:31 PM(UTC)
Manrico Mincuzzi

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Hi Peter,

As you probably have heard I am the coordinator of IMAC in Europe.

In the last few years, Europe activated 25 IMAC Countries, as you can see from our web site: www.ImacEurope.com

In each of these Countries, IMAC is represented by a standalone nonprofit organization, with its BOD and its financial independence. Some of these organizations work jointly with the local air modeling federation, others are completely standalone. However, all of them work for the same purpose: expanding the semi-scale aerobatic practice within a global frame of activities. The mass registration process has worked immediately and easily is some of these countries, while in others, due to smallness and initial budget constraints it is taking a little longer. However, we feel that 20$ per year is a very well spent amount, to show commitment to a club we really like and to prove we want to be part of it, covering a more or less active role, from Pilot to Organizer.

This global effort and framework has been initially structured and is provided by IMAC US which, over the years and developing on the TOC success has developed a system that truly works. This system, that you know very well, structured on classes, enables and facilitates the growth of the competence of dozen of pilots all over. Our feeling is that, for them, participating in this global effort is important. In fact, the last two world championships held in the US have been a success, while in Europe we will celebrate the first European Championship next year and we will host the Worlds in 2022 for the first time out of America.

I know that also IMAC South America is doing quite well and growing. I hope they will soon qualify to host a World Championship.

I was under the impression that Australia was going to take the lead for the development of IMAC Asia-Pacific but, as I read your post, I may have misunderstood.

Personally, I believe that growing jointly IMAC all over the world is a good thing to engage on, as creating something very local and different, in my view, doesn't take anywhere and is not motivating for a lot of pilots. However, I may be wrong.

I really wish Australia will get on its IMAC feet and that it lead the development of IMAC Asia-Pacific.

Manrico
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Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Michael Hobson  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, May 21, 2019 2:11:02 AM(UTC)
Michael Hobson

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Manrico, Australia is certainly on its "IMAC feet". We have been flying scale aerobatics in accordance with the IMAC rule book for over 20 years and have had a national special interest group (the Australian Scale Aerobatics Association) for over 15 years. The ASAA was previously recognised by IMAC as an affiliate based on the criteria that IMAC set down (ie membership of IMAC taken out by 5 of our local members). But sometime in the last 5 years IMAC changed the affiliation rules without telling us and decided that it would mandate direct membership of our participants without any discussion or consultation?

I have been involved in scale aeros in Australia for around 12 years and have held committee positions on the ASAA for around the last 8 years. I have previously written to the BOD as secretary of the ASAA and got no response. To be frank previously IMAC had little interest in anything that went on outside of the US. So we simply went about our business running competitions, judging schools etc and did everything we could to grow and promote scale aerobatics in Australia. Now, after having firmly established the group within Australia, our members are being told that they have to pay money to the US? What we need continued use of is the IMAC unknowns and we are prepared to pay a nominal fee for this. But to demand 50% of the ASAA revenue which is otherwise used for running competitions and promoting scale aerobatics in Australia is unsustainable.
Its not like Australia hasn't been prepared to participate or contribute in other ways, from my understanding the first international members of the IMAC rules committee came from Australia. And there have been a number of Australians participating and contributing to the sequence committee.

The reason why Peter and I are expressing our concerns is not because we have an issue with IMAC or the BOD - we are both paid up members despite their being no tangible benefit to us - we are expressing our concens becuase we thing that the proposal to require participants of scale aerobatics competitions to be paid up members of the US IMAC entity detrimental to particpation and growth of scale aerobatics in Australia.

To use the extreme possibilities, which is better?

25 people competing in IMAC comps in Australia (which is effectively unsustainable given the georgraphic size of the country) all of whom are IMAC members resulting in IMAC getting $500 in the short term but IMAC ultimately failing in Australia due to the local SIG not being able to fund itself - lets be clear IMAC is not going to run competitions in Australia.

OR

150 peopling participating in IMAC comps in Australia (some of whom maybe be IMAC members, most of whom will be ASAA members) and we are able to continue to support and grow scale aerobatics in Australia becuase we can get support out of our national association etc.

We can probably afford a nominal fee to show our support of IMAC but I will never support compulsory membership of IMAC in AUstralia to particpate in our competitions - it would be tantamount to cutting our own throats.
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Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:16:32 PM(UTC)
Manrico Mincuzzi

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Dear Michael,

I have been participating into model aerobatics for many years. Therefore, I got used to pay yearly fees for the association to my local airfield, 180 euro, the association to the Italian Aero-club, 60 euro. Years ago, I used to by the FAI license, that in Italy costs 160 euro.

When I buy gasoline for my DA200, I normally get 20 liters at a time and I spend about 38 euro. Nine minutes of flight with my airplane take about 1.7 liters of gasoline. On average, I make 150 flights per year and so I spend about 134 euro just for gasoline, if we forget the cost for the Motul 800 oil and the other additives for engine cleaning. Let's also forget how much I spend in airplanes, engines, radios, traveling and lodging to participate to this IMAC game every year, since I would like to continue to nurture my peace of mind in this beautiful evening. So, it turns out that the 17 euro required to be an IMAC member account for about 12% of what I spend only in gasoline every year, without considering oil and additives. However, if I had to add up all the costs I normally support to participate into the aerobatic season, the impact of the IMAC registration would fall well under 1%.

All these funny numbers just to say that, while I think I understand the logic of what you wrote, when it comes to the economics, I get lost. In fact, it seems to me that the cost of the IMAC registration fee is already at nominal level, but I may be wrong.

It is true that, for some reasons, in the past, IMAC never showed an organized internationalization intent, but things may rapidly change in this world and I am very happy to see that the BOD finally got itself determined to diffuse this great semi-scale aerobatic practice, accomplishing a global expansion at which FAI just completely failed in the last thirty years.

Personally, I am proud to be an IMAC member and I am happy to see that all pilots in Italy, as well as in many other countries, feel the same. We are part of the same thing, we like it and we continue to strive to make it better. Membership is a very small, but tangible sign of participation. This is why it is called Member-Ship and, in our case, it has a very little cost.

After reviewing the economics, I guess I have to conclude that all this matters doesn't have much to do with cash. Instead, it may be significantly influenced by the feelings we share or do not share about IMAC. We, of course, do not necessarily have to share the same feelings.

How do you feel about IMAC?

Manrico
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Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:38:52 PM(UTC)
Manrico Mincuzzi

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Sorry, it is late tonight and I made a mistake. I was so happy to spend so little in gas, but in fact, I was wrong.
Those 150 flights actually cost me about 484 euro. This means that the IMAC registration is about 3,5% of the cost of gas and, as I wrote, nothing versus the cost of the whole season.

These DA200 consume a little bit too much, don't you think?

Manrico
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Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Peter  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 21, 2019 10:02:49 PM(UTC)
Peter

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Manrico,
No its not about the money for us either, because both Michael and I are IMAC members as well as MAAA and ASAA members as well as our own clubs that we fly at.
Its probably more about process and involvement of "stakeholders" in this movement for internationalisation. Congratulations for the success you've had in getting these organisations together and active.

If you have local associations in each country that are dedicated to Scale Aerobatics then there is a duplication by having them join IMAC. If this is true then IMAC should be a federation of all countries that have an interest group association. Local associations would be responsible for local activities, and IMAC the "big picture", providing guidance to local associations, rule book management, sequence development, and management of worlds. To do this costs money that should come from affiliation fees. The next step is to give equal representation of member countries to this true world body - so that everyone feels included. Then you would argue that regions within North America should be their own associations paying a similar affiliation fee to IMAC. Then there's a level playing field.
And IMAC would operate like most sports do around the world that have reached critical mass to support things like a world championship. Read up on how Olympic sports and world sporting organisations operate. I suspect that we are not at that point really - even in Europe.
Regards - Peter
Offline Michael Hobson  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, May 22, 2019 6:30:15 AM(UTC)
Michael Hobson

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Manrico, I’m posting from an IPhone so I’ll keep it brief. You sound very similar to me. I don’t add up what I have spent on IMAC. In the last 12 months I have probably travellled over 20,000km to attend IMAC events (and that is just in Australia). I’m pretty sure if I stopped flying IMAC there are some vendor’s who would shed a few tears. personally it’s not about the money. I will pay much more to have IMAC strong and healthy. But I know from many years experience that cost (no matter how small) is just one more excuse to stop people giving IMAC a go - especially when people can’t see a tangible benefit. To be honest I am embarrassed to quivel over such an insignificant amount but unfortunately this is the reality... perhaps Aussie’s are just “tight arses” to use some Australian vernacular.
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Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Michael Hobson  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, May 22, 2019 6:47:28 AM(UTC)
Michael Hobson

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And just for the record I love my DA200 no matter how much fuel costs me...
Offline Manrico Mincuzzi  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, May 22, 2019 8:25:56 AM(UTC)
Manrico Mincuzzi

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Dear Michael and Peter,

IMAC is clearly in a state of evolution and I would say a very positive one.

Any evolutionary process is characterized by steps. The Federative model that Peter described is one of the possible outcomes of this process and, on principle, I may agree with it. However, I think we are still far from this end result. As a matter of fact we are still in the very initial phase of activating IMAC in several Countries. In my view a Country is activated when a reasonable number of boot camps and competitions are held, involving a relevant number of Pilots that will inevitably be a function of the Country population size.

Creating the local IMAC family and generating pilots who invest in semi-scale and become happy and proud to be IMAC members is the first step. In Asia for example, apart from Australia, there are several Countries who still need to find the best way to get involved.

Once Countries will be initialized and organized within Regions, the need to provide direct voice of the Regions within the central BOD will emerge as a natural consequence.

By the way, this is already happening. For example, even if I am not part of the BOD, I have been able to propose significant changes to the free style rules and, together with Adi, we went through an approval process with the BOD and now, as you know, they have been introduced (I really hope you like the changes too). We are also discussing changes regarding the scale rules, whose current difficult application is creating problems. I know the BOD is considering to open itself to the direct presence of all international regional directors. So, I perceive the system to be in significant motion and open to any useful discussion. As a regional coordinator, I really do not feel to be outside of anything. On the contrary I feel a mounting responsibility to make things work properly in each Country I am coordinating.

On the other hand, if you look at this matter from a BOD perspective, you would be quite surprise at seeing an amazingly growing number of IMAC competitions being held in several parts of the world, that are being participated by Pilots who are not IMAC members and that, in some cases, even refuse to be part of IMAC and who, at the same time, really seem to enjoy all the organization and the technology that is constantly provided to them. I am sure that, if you were sitting in the BOD you would start to be puzzled and concerned about who to best manage this process involving people who do not want to be involved.

I think that all of us should immediately strive to make sure that the greatest part of the Pilots flying IMAC immediately become IMAC members. We have engineered the Mass Registration process to facilitate this happening on a Country basis. At the same time, while we will show the actual existence of IMAC through registration, the local IMAC representatives should be provided voice within the BOD that, inevitably, will become more and more international.

During the unfolding of this process different models of participation will have to be presented and discussed within the BOD and changes will certainly be made from within. However, I am sure they will always happen in steps. This "from within" approach is the one I feel to be most appropriate, especially considering that, in these initial phases of our International expansion, is very important to hold a steady centralized approach to make sure that IMAC doesn't take different shapes and forms in different places in the world.

So, my suggestion to you is that you find the most reasonable way to register as many Australian pilots you can and that you start participating to the BOD life with good title and that you start caring also for the development of IMAC in the rest of the Asia-Pacific Region.

Let's work all together to make it great! Without forgetting that we are doing this for pleasure and fun, and that fortunately, IMAC is not a global Fortune 500 Company listed on the NY Stock Exchange, but a relatively simple Club made of Friends,

Manrico
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Krzy4rc on 5/22/2019(UTC), Toby W. Silhavy on 5/22/2019(UTC), Peter on 5/22/2019(UTC)
Offline Adi Kochav  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, May 22, 2019 10:28:15 AM(UTC)
Adi Kochav

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Hi Peter and Michael

Since the first Worlds in 2014, IMAC went full steam ahead in making IMAC an international club, not just for the US pilots but for the entire world that fly scale Aerobatic.
We’ve created a new International Region just for that and because we think that we need to give more exposure to all countries we are going to create 3 new International regions so basically we will have 9 regions in total, in each we will have a regional director that will be representing his region in the BoD.
So the BoD will have now 6 US and Canada regions and 3 international regions.

The 3 new regions will cover the Latin America, Europe and Asia/Pacific.
Currently now, Asia Pacific is having 2 countries, Australia and India.
Australia being one of the biggest countries flying IMAC in the world, is actually by definition, The Asia Pacific Region so having a repressive in the IMAC BoD as a regional director is something natural, that will sure serve both interest in making IMAC grow more globally.

Cheers
Adi

This is the future, in our perspective as you can see in the pictures attached here.

133.png (300kb) downloaded 1 time(s).

INTER.png (45kb) downloaded 3 time(s).
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