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Offline kjetilmh  
#1 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 2:54:32 PM(UTC)
kjetilmh

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Hi
At our regular 2 days competitions we fly one unknown.
It is then weighten to be 20% of the total score.

How is this done in competitions where there are more unkonwns?
If 3 known and 3 unknows are to be scored ( after dropped sequences).
- 3 unkowns 20% (6 each) and 3 knowns 80% (26 each)
- 3 unknown 60% ( 20 each) and 3 knowns 40%. (13 each)

Regards,
Kjetil Hansen
Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
Offline Doug Pilcher  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 3:22:13 PM(UTC)
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Kjetil,

If you look at this document on "Appendix pages it will show you a break out of Knowns to Drops and Unknowns to drops ratios.

http://www.mini-iac.org/...f7-871a-a01a27600f64.pdf

Drop Schedule.PNG (65kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
Doug Pilcher
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Orthobird on 9/27/2019(UTC)
Offline kjetilmh  
#3 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 3:32:35 PM(UTC)
kjetilmh

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But how is Known and Unkown sequences weighted when the total score is calulated.?
Does that mean that the unknowns sequences together has 20% weight ????

Confused Confused
Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
Offline Doug Pilcher  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 4:03:16 PM(UTC)
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Score handles it though defaults to “0”’s on the preferences tab for Unknowns, so your score keeper will need to supply the 3/1 for the Unknowns. Then the total knowns flown without the 1 drop will be 80% of your final as usual. And the total amount of unknowns without the drop will remain 20% of your final.

If Score preferences are set correctly then the program will do rest of the work.
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Offline Mike Karnes  
#5 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 4:42:31 PM(UTC)
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I would like to take backup one step.
Here is the illustrations with how they should be set so the results are accurate day to day.
Day 1 you can leave the program as set, the default is.0/0/0 Pref.JPG (52kb) downloaded 8 time(s).
Day 2 using the Drop Schedule the calculation need to be set 2/1/3 like below 2 unk.JPG (50kb) downloaded 2 time(s).
Day 3 can be set 3/1/3 3 unk.JPG (51kb) downloaded 1 time(s).
Mike Karnes
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Offline Mike Karnes  
#6 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 7:41:00 PM(UTC)
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Also when imputing the unknowns you must differentiate between them with a different number, I use:
the first day as 1-1
second day 2-2 and
third day 3-3
Mike Karnes
President
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317-716=6220

Offline Adi Kochav  
#7 Posted : Friday, September 27, 2019 11:02:51 PM(UTC)
Adi Kochav

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Originally Posted by: kjetilmh Go to Quoted Post
But how is Known and Unkown sequences weighted when the total score is calulated.?
Does that mean that the unknowns sequences together has 20% weight ????

Confused Confused


The entire Knowns are weighted 80% of the total scores and the entire unknowns are 20% of the total scores so.

When you fly 6 knowns only 4 will be calculated and they will be 80% of the Score ie each will calculate as 20%.
The 1 Unknown will be 20% as well.
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kjetilmh on 9/28/2019(UTC)
Offline kjetilmh  
#8 Posted : Saturday, September 28, 2019 7:47:03 AM(UTC)
kjetilmh

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Originally Posted by: Adi Kochav Go to Quoted Post
The entire Knowns are weighted 80% of the total scores and the entire unknowns are 20% of the total scores so.

When you fly 6 knowns only 4 will be calculated and they will be 80% of the Score ie each will calculate as 20%.
The 1 Unknown will be 20% as well.


Thanks Adi.

I have created an excel sheet that calculates the weight of each sequence based on the standard
drop schedule in the "IMAC OFFICAL CONTEST STANDARDS" document.
If you have a look at column J you can see that for some combinations the weight for an unknown sequence becomes very low.

E.g Have a look at option number 11 in the excel document.
Here we end up with 3 knowns and 3 unknowns ( after drop ) .
The 3 knowns will be weighted by 26,67% each.
The 3 unknowns will be weighted by 6,67% each.

The usual schedule for top level IMAC events like the Words, Europeans, Nats ....
is to fly many unknowns. I believe this is done to increase the difficulty level of the competition.
At this level most pilots are capable of flying the known sequence reasonable well.
But this is not reflected in the way the score is calculated.
If we look at the calculation, you will see that when number of unknowns is increased the weight of each unknown is reduced.

I believe we should make sure that unknowns have a higher weight,
when we are flying many unknown sequences.

known and unknown weight.xlsx (15kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
Offline kjetilmh  
#9 Posted : Saturday, September 28, 2019 7:56:06 AM(UTC)
kjetilmh

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Originally Posted by: Mike Karnes Go to Quoted Post
I would like to take backup one step.
Here is the illustrations with how they should be set so the results are accurate day to day.
Day 1 you can leave the program as set, the default is.0/0/0
Day 2 using the Drop Schedule the calculation need to be set 2/1/3 like below
Day 3 can be set 3/1/3


My interpretation is that the drop schedule (given in appendix A)
is not depending on whether this is an 1,2 or 3 day competition.
If this is not the case, I believe you need to explain.
Huh

Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
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Silver Fox on 9/28/2019(UTC)
Offline Doug Pilcher  
#10 Posted : Saturday, September 28, 2019 8:30:18 AM(UTC)
Doug Pilcher

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In your first post, I am not clear on how many knowns you intend or are hoping for?

Please state if this is a 2 or 3 day contest?
If a 3 Day contest, what is your intent or hope on knowns flown?

I guess we need more information from you first.
I do not see a contest listed for Norway on schedule anywhere so not sure what the event even is currently. When is this event being held?

Also, all of this information is supposed to be available to pilots with a 30 day notice.

Edited by user Saturday, September 28, 2019 8:55:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Clarify

Doug Pilcher
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Offline kjetilmh  
#11 Posted : Saturday, September 28, 2019 10:49:09 AM(UTC)
kjetilmh

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The questions I am asking is not for a Norwegian contest.
The background for the questions is the European championship in 2020.
The plan says 4 knowns( 1 will be dropped ) and 5 unknowns ( 2 will be dropped).
That means that each known will be weighted 26,67% and each unknown 6.67%.
To me that does not make sense. Why are we flying so many unknowns?

In addition, I am trying to understand what the rules are.

Edited by user Saturday, September 28, 2019 1:46:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Spellling

Kjetil Hansen
Imac Norway
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Silver Fox on 9/28/2019(UTC)
Offline Adi Kochav  
#12 Posted : Sunday, September 29, 2019 9:28:45 AM(UTC)
Adi Kochav

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Originally Posted by: kjetilmh Go to Quoted Post
The questions I am asking is not for a Norwegian contest.
The background for the questions is the European championship in 2020.
The plan says 4 knowns( 1 will be dropped ) and 5 unknowns ( 2 will be dropped).
That means that each known will be weighted 26,67% and each unknown 6.67%.
To me that does not make sense. Why are we flying so many unknowns?

In addition, I am trying to understand what the rules are.


Hi buddy whats up ?

We fly so many unknowns because its harder.
The Known sequence is a standard generic sequence with contests in this level and magnitude we try to make it more challenging.
Because the Unknowns are being weighted with less percentage given to the the knowns, we fly more unknowns.
According to the IMAC contest standards V11, a legal IMAC contest, that is scheduled for 1-2 days, list 4 knowns and 1 unknown will be flown there.
If the contest is being scheduled for multiple day, more then 2 then we can fly as many unknowns as we wish and its up to the CD to choose, as long as we publish it at list 30 days in advanced.
The Europeans is scheduled to be for 6 days with about 120 pilots that will need to fly, 4 knowns, 5 unknowns(6 days contest) and 2 freestyle sequences. on 4 flight lines, that is 1320 sequences being flown in 6 days.

So, again, why more Unknowns than Knowns ?
More challenge by all means
Different score weight (26 for known 7 for Unknown)
A lot of pilots
Time/Difficulty ratio
Being covered by the contest standards v11
First time in the world an IMAC contest is being scheduled for 6 continuance days

Here are the contests standards specifically target the unknowns.

11. Only one Unknown sequence will be flown at either a two day or a one day
event and the score for that Unknown (Known for Basic) cannot be dropped. Events
of more than two (2) days may have multiple Unknowns (Known for Basic). In this
case, however, each Unknown sequence must be scored separately and calculated
into the pilot's score as separate sequences. Multiple Unknown sequences cannot be
added together to arrive at a single Unknown score. If more than one Unknown
sequence (Known for Basic) is flown, one or more may be dropped at the discretion
of the CD. Dropping Unknown scores must be done in accordance with the drop
schedule provided in Appendix A of this document.

All sequences, Known and Unknown (Known for Basic), will follow the procedure
for normalized scoring and drops as defined in the current AMA rule book for Scale
Aerobatics and Appendix A of this document. Given that an Unknown(s) is flown, the
Unknown (Known for Basic) sequence(s) will comprise 20% of the total normalized
score.
12. For a two (2) day contest, the Unknown (Known for Basic) may be flown on
either the first or second day of the contest. If the Unknown is to be flown on the
second day of the contest, the Unknown will be distributed the evening before it is to
be flown. If there is to be an Unknown flown the first day, the Unknown will be made
available the morning of the first day of the contest (at the pilots meeting is
recommended) and may not be flown earlier than the afternoon of the first day of the
contest. For a contest longer than two (2) days where there is to be an Unknown flown
each day, subsequent Unknowns will be distributed the evening before the day they
are to be flown. Flying an unknown on the first day of a contest must be published at
least 30 days in advance of the contest. In any case, Unknowns for a contest may not
be distributed before the first day of the contest


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Steven_R on 9/29/2019(UTC)
Offline Kevin Wilson  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, October 1, 2019 9:19:09 AM(UTC)
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It seems to me that kjetilmh is stating the weighting of the unknown should be higher since you are flying more of them to increase the difficulty of the contest. The CD may do this and the only downside is the contest would not count for IRPS points because it would not follow the contest standards guide. Many times, invitational events have operated outside the norms this way.
thanks 1 user thanked Kevin Wilson for this useful post.
Silver Fox on 10/1/2019(UTC)
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